Lets talkabout marality and gaming, and why its important.

xxdibbs
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Lets talkabout marality and gaming, and why its important. Mar 12, 2018 9:21:04 GMT

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Post by xxdibbs on Mar 12, 2018 9:21:04 GMT

Hello everyone I'm new here.

The theme of morality is usually tackled in games with clear cut "good" choices (think fable, Infamous or Dragon Age / Mass Effect among others) and clear cut "bad" choices.

Whats wrong with that?

Nothing depending on the function with that morality system and everything depending on the purpose of that morality system.

You see if you include a morality system with the intent of creating a more human narrative then at that exact point your story has already failed, irregardless of if its the greatest story ever made.

Why?

Because it fails at one thing and one thing only, being human.

You see in order to tell a human story, it must tell the tale in not black and white but it hundreds, no thousands of shades of grey. To tell a human story is to tell the tale of a flawed character in a flawed world that is infested with other flawed characters.

None of that can be achieved through the use of "black" and "white" morality, since nothing is purely black or white, no human no matter how evil or bad is purely black and no saint is purely white.

This simple morality system of Black and White has been praised as a revolution, but because of it we can no longer create a human narrative.

My favorite series is Berserk, is one where not even the most evil character in it is purely morally "black". This is what makes him human, his flaws define his humanity, the thousands of shades of grey that define his actions are what make him human.

I posted this earlier in DD's website that Politics has no place in gaming and here in my magnum opus into this forum I'll tell you why.

If we cannot have flawed characters who's motivations and stories cannot be conveyed in thousands of shades of grey then we as an industry can never tackle political themes or even subject matter.

I was playing Wolfenstien 2 a while ago and the number one rule in Politics is that there is no "good" nor "bad" in that world, in Wolfenstien 2 you are the good guy and the Nazi's are the bad guys.

Your proxy is your enemy, basically it doesn't treat the Nazi's as humans nor as flawed people.

They are the enemy and they exist for you to kill.

When their is no good guy and no bad guy is when this medium can begin to understand the gateway to tackling these themes and subject matter.

To many not demonizing Nazi's is very controversial.

In politics, demonizing and deifying anyone, any place and any belief is to deny them their humanity and their right to exist.

To give and portray all factions / NPC's in a game as humans and as flawed characters is something that is many many years ahead of this industry.

A game can't exist yet without a bad guy, and without a bad guy it is no longer game with an objective.

Some random thought of the day.

MikuMatt
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Lets talkabout marality and gaming, and why its important. Mar 13, 2018 3:25:29 GMT

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Post by MikuMatt on Mar 13, 2018 3:25:29 GMT

I'm not sure I really agree with your understanding of what politics is.

Politics is simply a position on a subject that has implications for a group of people, or a society. There are plenty of political positions that do claim that there's an objective good and evil in the world. All religions are fundamentally political organisations, and their ideologies are political positions. All religions advocate for an objective understanding of good and evil.

As you brought them up, the Nazis were also a body of people that saw an absolute good and evil in the world. The Jewish people (for the most extreme, but not the only, example), to the Nazis, were absolutely vilified. The Holocaust was a direct consequence of that.

It's also impossible for art to be apolitical. Any social statement that you make is political. Deliberately trying to have an *absence* of politics in your art is, itself, a political statement (which is why it's nonsense to claim you're doing that).

Berserk itself is hugely political. The anime/manga covers of wide reaching themes, from the privilege and decadence of the wealthy, to the corruptive forces of power, to the disconnect between a person's visions and dreams, and their ability to execute it (and whether that's for the good of the collective). There's a loooong discussion on morality within the anime, which takes the position that evil is a product of humanity, rather than an external force.

Those are all political positions.

Of course, you don't have to agree with all political positions. In fact, it's impossible to do so. Generally speaking I'm a moral relativist myself, so I rarely find myself agreeing with any text that presents morality as a black and white thing.

But if I don't agree with the ideology of a game, that's not a reason for it not to exist. I don't accept the moral core of the Call of Duty series, or The Last Of Us, or Uncharted, or dozens of other games, but rather than deny the validity of those games, I prefer to engage in a discussion with them.

Because ultimately, that's what art's about. Creating discussion. Agree or disagree with it, it's still valid and worthy in existing.

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xxdibbs
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Lets talkabout marality and gaming, and why its important. Mar 13, 2018 5:06:56 GMT

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Post by xxdibbs on Mar 13, 2018 5:06:56 GMT

oh no I meant that Humans as a species are flawed and any position or views they hold are flawed as well, and that those flaws are hard if not borderline impossible to convey over simple terms such as "good" and "bad".

Using Grifith from Berserk as an example what he does at "that point" could be seen by many as "bad" but him himself its a means to the end of achieving his goal of having his own country, does that make him bad?

No it makes him flawed, and by extension human.

Morality systems in games fail at conveying those shades of gray, if nothing is either black or white then how can a character be human if that character can only chose between good or bad?

I use the political definitions the one used by diplomats in international affairs.

Its about conveying that humanity, humanity is conveyed in many shades of grey and confining morality to pure bad or good restricts the narratives ability to explore the humanity of the character.

Just getting some discussion going~~~~~~~~~

MikuMatt
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Lets talkabout marality and gaming, and why its important. Mar 13, 2018 8:38:09 GMT

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Post by MikuMatt on Mar 13, 2018 8:38:09 GMT

Oh, I agree that morality systems are still a flawed thing in video games. For me the issue is that they tend to encourage people to behave exclusively in one direction or another. Either you play "good" and therefore are forced into making all the "good" decisions in the game, or you play "evil" and then lose any benefits from doing so if you make some "good" decisions.

It's very rare that a morality system is able to mechanically represent the fact that people don't tend to be purely good or purely evil, and do tend to make decisions on both sides of that binary.

I am completely in agreement with you on that point!

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xxdibbs
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Lets talkabout marality and gaming, and why its important. Mar 19, 2018 8:02:03 GMT

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Post by xxdibbs on Mar 19, 2018 8:02:03 GMT

The thing is that my definition of politics is the same one used in the political science world, it has a different meaning in that world.

For example Nicholas Machiovelli's the Prince book is a book on sociopolitical theory, on how to exercise the use of power up to which the ends can justify them

TL;DR The ends justify the means.

You can do whatever you want to do as long as the results can justify the actions you have taken.

Going back into games we don't see that kind of depth in its morality system.

We don't get to understand why a character does something and are instead forced to accept that the game says he's bad and thus he's bad.

What ends was this characters actions trying to achieve?

Do those ends justify the means that this character employed?

That's what politics is about, its about diving deeper into a world where there is no right or wrong.

It's simply good or bad decisions, not good or bad people.

In the same sense games deify the player character, and demonify the antagonist, why?

Because they as a meduim haven't reached a level where both parties can be human and flawed and still retain a clear cut end goal.

What if they make a villain that you agree with? What then?

Sorry i was off for a bit i had some stuff to do but I'm back for now~~~~